OMAHA, NEBRASKA — It’s a frigid Friday night in Omaha, and Bernie Sanders has come to this riverside Nebraska city to sound a battlecry for democracy — and rally Americans to fight the rising threats of authoritarianism and billionaire rule. The thin ice floes careening down the Missouri River offer a chilling metaphor for the state of our republic since Donald Trump, and his mega-donor in chief, Elon Musk assumed power in Washington.

The independent senator from Vermont — who electrified progressives in two runs for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2016 and 2020 — remains a vigorous movement builder. At a moment when Trump and Musk are making daily, extra-constitutional power grabs, and the GOP-led Congress is teeing up a bill to slash the social safety net in order to finance new tax cuts for the wealthiest, Sanders is seeking to build a working-class backlash.

Omaha is the kick-off for what Sanders is billing as a “Fighting Oligarchy” tour. With the House closely divided, he is targeting more than a dozen swing-districts with Republican representatives — politicians who might be persuaded to vote against the Trump budget bill. In the case of Omaha, responsible for tallying one of Nebraska’s Electoral College votes for Democrats in the past two presidential elections, the target is GOP centrist Rep. Don Bacon.

Sanders is a hot ticket. The kickoff rally was originally set to be held in a local union hall, but had to be relocated to the grand ballroom of the downtown Marriott to accommodate the flood of RSVPs. The room is packed with thousands of rallygoers — people of all ages and ethnicities sporting everything from man buns and hand-knit pink “pussy hats” to Nebraska Cornhusker jackets and “Bernie 2020” swag.

The atmosphere is electric — charged with an urgency, and even an anger, quite unlike the festive feel of Sanders’ presidential rallies. The crowd welcomes the 83-year-old senator on stage with a raucous chant of “Ber-nie! Ber-nie! Ber-nie!”

Sanders’ message is different from his familiar stump speech, as well. It is rooted in history, with Sanders summoning the spirit of solidarity and courage that saw the country through its deepest struggles — from the Revolution and the Civil War to the fights for women’s sufferage, labor rights, and desegregation. Quoting the Gettysburg Address, Sanders vows that Lincoln’s people-centered vision of American democracy must not be allowed to mutate into “a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, and for the billionaires.”

Prior to the rally, Rolling Stone spoke at length with Sanders both in person and via telephone. Despite his advancing years, Sanders remains robust, with clear eyes and a strong handshake. He is, as ever, sharp with his details, gruff in his argument, and inexhaustible in his commitment to bettering the lives of America’s working class.

The transcript that follows has been edited for length and clarity.

What is the impulse behind this “Fighting Oligarchy” tour?

One of the failings of the Democratic Party and the media has been their unwillingness to take a hard look at the reality facing the American people. We just don’t do that. Here is the reality: You’re living in the richest country in the history of the world. Despite that, you’ve got 60 percent — six-zero percent — of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, struggling every week to pay the bills. We take that for granted. We should not.

Over the last 50 years, despite an explosion in technology and productivity, the average American worker, in real inflation-adjusted dollars, is making less today than he or she did 50 years ago. And during that period, there has been a massive transfer of wealth from the bottom 90 percent to the top 1 percent — tens of trillions of dollars. What’s more, 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured; 25 percent of seniors are living on $15,000 a year or less. We have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country on Earth. That is the reality today. It’s a reality that we don’t talk about — and that is why people are angry.

The system is broken. Donald Trump is right. The system is broken. The problem is, his solutions will only make a bad situation worse.

Your politics have long warned about the unchecked power of millionaires and billionaires. Right now, under Trump, the world’s richest man, Elon Musk, is seizing the reins of the executive branch and carving up whole agencies. Can you talk about what’s so extraordinary — and extraordinarily revealing — about this moment? 

I have been talking about this issue for a long time. It is worse now than it used to be — and the American people are seeing it. What does it tell any American when the three wealthiest people in this country — Musk, [Jeff] Bezos, and [Mark] Zuckerberg — are literally sitting right behind the President at his inauguration? What does it tell you that Musk spent $270 million to get Trump elected and is now the most powerful person in American government. What does it tell you that Bezos, the owner of The Washington Post, kicked in a million dollars to Trump’s inaugural fund; that Zuckerberg did the same, and also, when he was sued by Trump for his ownership of Meta, kicked in a $25 million settlement — “settlement” quote, unquote, right? — to Trump. If that doesn’t tell you that a handful of multi-billionaires have enormous control, not only of the economy, but the political life of this country… If you don’t see that, then you really don’t know what’s going on.

What’s the strategy of your tour, which opened in heartland swing-districts in Omaha and Iowa City?

Things are moving very quickly. There’s massive anxiety all over this country. Democrats are searching hard to come up with a way to fight back effectively. I don’t think they’re doing it terribly well, but it is an unprecedented moment, so I don’t want to be too hard on them.

I believe sincerely that the defeat of Trumpism is not going to take place in Washington, D.C. It’s going to take place in communities all over this country where people are saying: You know what? There is something wrong when a handful of billionaires control our government; when we have a corrupt campaign finance system that allows these billionaires to buy elections; when we have concentration of ownership in our economy that we’ve never seen in the history of this country — more income and wealth inequality. There is something wrong.

On top of that, there is something profoundly wrong when we have a president moving us to an authoritarian type of society, capturing more power for himself, acting in an unconstitutional way virtually every day. And then you’ve got the Republicans and Trump working on a so-called reconciliation bill, giving even more tax breaks to the richest 1 percent, while cutting back on Medicaid, education, housing, and the needs of working people.

Are you counting on a popular backlash to these priorities?

We are focusing on getting out of the Beltway, to raise consciousness and organize people to fight back. The good news, so to speak, is that in the House of Representatives, Republicans have a very slim majority: It’s 218 to 215. That means that if just two Republicans out of 218 say, ‘I’m not voting for tax breaks for billionaires and cuts in Medicaid and education,’ it’s defeated.

The goal is to organize specifically in the 15 or so districts where Republicans won by a very small vote; two of those districts are in Iowa and Nebraska. I’m here simply to say to the people: “It’s your district. You tell your congressperson to vote no on tax breaks for people who don’t need it, and on massive cuts to programs that people desperately need.”

Last time we spoke, you raised the specter of America losing the rule of law. What are we seeing so far that oversteps the constitution or threatens the operating principles of a democratic society? 

As I hope every sixth grader in America understands we have a Constitution. These guys back in the 1770s, given the time that they lived in, developed a quite extraordinary document. They were very conscious to make sure that no one entity had the kind of power that the King of England had over his colonies. And what they said, which is pretty sensible, is we’re going to divide power up — three branches of government, executive, legislative, judiciary, with more-or-less equal power.

What Trump has been doing since his election is day after day, acting in an unconstitutional way to usurp the power of Congress and the courts. You have people like J.D. Vance —  this guy went to Yale Law School — saying, ‘No, the courts don’t have the authority to stop the president’s initiatives,’ or something to that effect. In fact, for the last 150 years, that’s exactly what the courts have ruled. That is one of the major functions of federal courts.

So you’re having an attack on the judiciary, certainly an attack on Congress, in the sense that the Congress appropriates money for education, and health care, and the environment. And Trump says, ‘I’m not going to let it go out, I am going to stop it.’ That’s unconstitutional. It is unconstitutional for the president to completely undermine and kill an important government agency called USAID, which is keeping people around the world from starving to death or dying of very preventable diseases.

The president can come to Congress and say, I don’t like USAID. I don’t like the Department of Education. I want to get rid of it. Fine. And then Congress has to decide what it wants to do. It is not within the authority of the president to dissolve and destroy agencies that were passed and developed by the U.S. Congress. Absolutely unconstitutional.

Trump is also targeting the Fourth Estate — a textbook move for an aspiring authoritarian.

Trump’s unprecedented attack on the media has not gotten the attention it deserves. There is no politician, including myself, who has not been critical of the media for a variety of reasons. Nothing wrong with a politician being concerned about articles. Whatever. Happens every day. But it is unprecedented for the president of the United States, the most powerful person in the country, to wage lawsuits calling for billions of dollars in settlements on major media.

What he has done is sue ABC, and they settled for $16 million. He is in the process of suing CBS for $10 billion [Editor’s note: Trump recently increased his demand to $20 billion] — specifically suing 60 Minutes, which has a history of being one of the best investigative reporting outlets in America.

His FCC is now investigating PBS and NPR. He’s decided not to allow Associated Press into his press briefings, because they are not using his term for the Gulf of Mexico. He’s suing the Des Moines Register because he didn’t like the results of a poll they did! What kind of effect do you think that’s going to have? ‘You write stories that are critical of me, and you will open yourself up to a crippling lawsuit.’ All of that is unprecedented intimidation of the media.

Then he announces his new turn in American foreign policy where we love Vladimir Putin, who is a murdering dictator who, of course, does not allow freedom of speech or freedom of the press in Russia. That’s our new ally. You add all that up, and anyone who thinks we are not moving rapidly toward authoritarianism is clearly missing what’s going on.

At the same time, Elon Musk, is not only the president’s largest donor and the most influential person in government, but also owns his own megaphone with X, which he’s using to demonize social programs and spread misinformation. What effect does that have?

One of the dangerous issues that we are dealing is the introduction, in a way that is absolutely unprecedented, of the Big Lie. It’s not new that politicians distort the truth — that’s gone on forever. But right now, Trump and Musk are saying things which are profoundly, emphatically untrue, and then putting them on Musk’s social media, getting it out to hundreds and hundreds of millions of people, over and over again.

Just one example: A couple of months ago, the House — the Democrats and the Republicans — at the end of the Biden administration, had agreed on a continuing resolution [to fund the government]. Worked really hard on it. I was involved in that. Democrats made compromises. Republicans made compromises. They had a bill.

Before they could vote on it, Elon Musk sends out a dozen tweets, or dozens of tweets, and he says, ‘Do not vote for this continuing resolution, because it contains a 40 percent increase in salary for members of Congress.’ Of course, nobody should vote for a 40 percent increase for members of Congress. The truth is it was a 3 percent, or 4 percent increase. It was a blatant lie. But he comes up with this thing, and people all over this country [recoil]: ‘A 40 percent increase!? Who the hell do these guys think they are!? Vote it down!’

That’s what they do. It’s Trump lying about the election results of 2020, in a profound way, or lying about the insurrection of January 6, 2021. And now, just the other day, out of nowhere, Trump has decided that it was Ukraine that started the war. Most of us assumed — based on everything that we saw and heard — that Russia invaded Ukraine. But no. Now Trump has made it clear, in his view, that Zelensky in Ukraine started the war. A Big Lie. This is not a little lie. That is a Big Lie — and it will be repeated over and over and over again, and millions of people will say, ‘Oh, I guess Ukraine started the war. Why did Ukraine start the war?’

It is a profoundly difficult situation, and many of us are wrestling with how best to deal with it.

One of the biggest lies is Musk’s DOGE project is actually interested in “government efficiency” — rather than what looks to be creating opportunity for kleptocracy or something akin to that.

Here’s what I think it’s about. What do the oligarchs want? Some people say, ‘Elon Musk doesn’t need any more money. He’s got $400 billion. He’s not hustling more money. He’s trying to do the right thing. Why are you criticizing this guy? He’s a patriot.’ That’s what the president says. And across his government, Trump has 13 billionaires. Isn’t that wonderful? These guys don’t have any self interest at all. They’re just working for the public good.

Well, I don’t believe that for a second. I think for many oligarchs — for whatever reason, and you’d need a psychiatrist — these people are addicted to greed. They need more, and more, and more. For Elon, I think $400 billion is not enough. I suspect he would like to become the first trillionaire in the history of the world.

What I believe is when Musk lies about fraud in Social Security — and says he has discovered people 150 years old, 300 years old, whatever the hell it is, getting checks — what he is doing is telling people that the Social Security system is poorly run: ‘It’s full of fraud. It’s inefficient. You know what? Why do we need Social Security? Let’s get rid of it.’

And they’re going to be telling you about all of the problems in Medicaid. ‘Oh my God, somebody in Tucson, Arizona, cheated in Medicaid. They did. They filled out the forms. They’re an illegal person. Why do we need Medicaid? Why do we need Medicare?’

At the end of the day, you’ve got uber-capitalists now. Investment funds buying up everything. They’re buying up childcare, nursing homes, student athletic programs, you name it. They’re buying up primary care practices. What Trump and his friends have in mind is moving toward the privatization of every public service in America — including public education, the Post Office, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, etc.

When you talk about 60 percent of the American people working paycheck to paycheck, that’s an extraordinary constituency, if one can unify it politically. The success of the MAGA project seems to be dividing that working class along lines of racial fear or fear of sexual others. How can you take the opportunity to build a working-class consciousness — particularly now with Musk at the top, as a counterweight — without leaving constituencies behind who are really under threat, like trans Americans? 

I gotta tell you, I think about this, about 24 hours a day. In fact, I dream about this stuff. I used to dream about beautiful [things.] That’s how my life is.

Here is where the Democratic Party has played a terrible role. And when I talk about 60 percent of people living paycheck to paycheck, a health care system which is broken, a child care system which is broken, a horrific housing crisis of working people who are paying 50 or 60 percent of income on rent. I talked to a woman in Los Angeles paying 70 percent of her income for housing. Where were the Democrats? Where were they?

Do I think [Joe] Biden did a good job? I did in many respects. But did he and Democrats, in general, understand the enormity of the economic crises that we’re facing, and attempt to address them? No. They did not. Did Obama? Certainly not. Did the Democrats when they controlled the House? No, they did not.

A lot of the reason that so many working-class people are voting Republican is they listen to the Democrats, for years, bullshit about their ‘concern for working people,’ but nothing happened. Really. You tell me. How the hell does that happen? We’re the only major country not to guarantee health care for all people. I live 50 miles away from the Canadian border, they somehow managed to do that. They spend half as much per capita.

How are we the only major country not to provide paid family and medical leave, paid sick leave? It is embarrassingly stupid having the highest rate of childhood poverty in almost any country. So people look around and say, ‘Democrats, you’ve been telling us how concerned you are for us. For years. They didn’t do nothing.’ So these people think: Yes, Trump may be crazy. He may lie all the time, but at least he’s a strong guy, and he may do something — we don’t know.

What’s the path forward for progressives and Democrats?

The way to reclaim the allegiance of the working class is to actually stand up and fight for the working class. It’s not a question of “messaging,” or what ads you use. It is actually a question of doing something.

I’m introducing legislation to expand Social Security by lifting the cap on taxable income so we can raise Social Security benefits for every American by $2,400 and extend the solvency of Social Security by 75 years. That has 80 to 85 percent public support. But it’s very hard for me to get the Democrats to move on that issue. I want to expand Medicare to cover dental, hearing, and vision. That also has 80-plus percent support. Can’t get most Democrats to do it. Raise the minimum wage to a living wage — widely supported. You can’t get the Democrats to do it.

Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves. Is this particular crop of people — within a corrupt campaign finance system, where everybody’s so dependent on big money — able to do the right thing? I don’t know. And that raises a broader question, not only for America, but for the world. People always perceive it is government that is regulating business. But I suspect right now that it has turned — and it is really that the government is just another entity, by-and-large, owned by the corporate world.

Bottom line here is, if the Democrats are going to regain support of the working class, they have to stand up, tell the truth, take on powerful special interests who will punish them financially — with a lack of campaign contributions — but rally the American people. And that’s a bit of what we’re trying to do with the trips that we’ll be making around the country

Out of the gate, the Trump administration has been trying to claw back funding to tackle climate change. The reversals have even hit the Pentagon, which has long recognized the gravity of the threat. Can you speak to the short sightedness of the world’s richest people sticking their heads in the sand?

I wouldn’t phrase it that way. These people are not stupid. It gets back to my thought that they are really addicted to greed. The owners of oil companies have grandchildren whom I presume they love and want to see live happy and decent lives. Yet they are willing to destroy the planet for short-term profits which jeopardize the lives of their own grandchildren. Why are they doing that? Why do you have a president making lunatic remarks that climate change is a hoax, when every scientist who has studied the issue says that it’s an existential threat? I don’t want to spend my life talking about Trump. But he and his friends are addicted to greed. They are unbelievably irresponsible. For the short-term profits of their companies, these oil and coal and gas companies, they’re willing to sacrifice their own kids and grandchildren. You have to go to a psychiatrist to answer why. I can’t. But that’s the reality.

Last question: It was I’m sure a difficult decision to not run for president in 2024 — and clear the lane for Biden. Given how this has all turned out, do you have any reflections on that choice? 

I’m looking forward. Not backwards.

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